new_york_loner ([info]new_york_loner) wrote,
@ 2009-04-24 09:54:00
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Entry tags:george w. bush, iraq war, pre-invasion “intelligence”, torture issue, waterboarding

The Torture Issue
This new_york_loner site has grown cold from neglect; I've been spending my online time on posting boards across the globe. Mea culpa, once again.

The hot story this fine Spring morning is the debate and controversy surrounding the release of formerly classified documents that reveal the repeated use of waterboarding and other forbidden techniques on terror suspects held by the US.

Google News, at this moment in time, shows search results for [torture issue] at 5,740.

I decided to pick on the Big Apple this morning and post on the New York Daily News. I found a relevant story and submitted a comment that was accepted and posted.

The NYDN story is headlined, “Maybe torture was helpful, says Gibbs, but other methods may have been, too” and it’s by James Gordon Meek. Here’s the link:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2009/04/23/2009-04-23_maybe_torture_was_helpful_gibbs_sez.html#community

Here is the text of my post, (post #29):

Sadly, those who feel that heavenly ends justify devilish means may carry the day in this debate. That's the wrong message, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. There will be consequences, some predictable, others unforeseen.

Could it be that much of the pre-invasion “intelligence” that was used to justify the Iraq War was based on waterboard-induced confessions? The OK for these techniques must have come from George W. Bush himself.

If lying to Congress about a marital tryst is a “high crime”, then this torture stuff must meet the criteria to be properly labeled as such. It may be too late to impeach, it’s not too late to prosecute.


(19 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]serr8d
2009-04-25 03:53 am UTC (link)
Loner! You're still in my g00gle RSS reader, so I guess I'm the first to notice your new post, and stop by.

This issue, torture, is the only issue the far-left has that could possibly justify their 8 years of BDS, and might be (a long shot, but still..) a method to Get George. If there is any justification for torture, then the two captives who were waterboarded (yes, only two!) were certainly deserving of far worse than simple fear-of-drowning. Neither of 'em lost appendages; neither of 'em died. They were humiliated. My heart breaks, really.

Here's the complete list of 'tortures' these poor devils endured...
1. Attention grasp Grasping the suspect with both hands - one hand on each side of the collar opening - in one quick motion. In the same motion, the suspect is pulled towards the interrogator.

2. Walling The interrogators construct a flexible false wall, but do not tell the suspect it is fake. The individual is then placed with his or her heels touching the wall. The suspect is then pulled forward, and then quickly pushed back against the wall.

It is designed so that the suspect's shoulder blades hit the wall. The individual's neck is supported to stop whiplash.

The suspect is allowed to rebound off the wall - which makes a loud noise. The theory is that the noise will cause the suspect to think they are being harmed, when in fact no damage is being done.

3. Facial hold One open palm is placed on either side of the suspect's face - to keep their head immobile. The fingertips are kept away from the individual's eyes. It is designed to intimidate.

4. Insult slap The interrogator slaps the suspect's face, with fingers slightly spread. The slap is aimed for the area between the chin and the ear. The aim of the slap is not to cause long-lasting pain, but to shock, surprise or humiliate.

5. Cramped confinement The suspect is placed in a dark and confined space. Confinement in a larger space can last up to 18 hours, in a smaller space it is supposed to be less than two hours.

6. Wall standing Used to induce muscle fatigue. The suspect stands about four or five feet from the wall, with his feet spread approximately to shoulder width. Arms are stretched out in front of them, with fingers resting on the wall. The fingers support all the body weight, and they are not allowed to move.

7. Stress positions A variety of positions may be used, such as sitting on the floor with legs extended straight out in front with arms raised above the head. Again, they are designed to create the physical discomfort of muscle fatigue.

8. Sleep deprivation Used to reduce the suspect's ability to think on their feet, create discomfort, and encourage them to cooperate. The CIA was asking for this to happen for up to 11 days.

9. Insects placed in a confinement box The suspect is placed in a confined space with a seemingly lethal insect. They are told is it lethal, even though it is actually harmless.

Strangely, the CIA had indicated that they wished to place Zubaydah in confinement with a caterpillar, as he appeared to have a fear of such creatures.

10. Waterboarding The individual is bound securely to a bench, with their feet elevated. A cloth is placed over the forehead and eyes.

Water is then poured on the cloth, and the cloth itself is lowered to cover the mouth and nose.

Air flow is then restricted for up to 40 seconds at a time; this causes an increase in carbon dioxide in the individual's blood. It is designed to simulate suffocation and panic.
Yeah. That's it. With your grasp of history, you could probably cite dozens of instances of actual 'torture'. Think Cambodia post-Vietnam. Or South Africa, and 'necklacing'.

So, what we have here is pure political spectacle. Whether or not Obama goes along with it is immaterial.

If the Left goes too far, then this poor, fractured country might well take up civil war again.

(Reply to this) (Thread)
Reply to Serr8d
[info]new_york_loner
2009-05-01 03:37 pm UTC (link)
Thank you, Serr8d, for the visit, the links and the commentary.

None of the NCP regulars has left a comment; I did see your brief re-appearance on their LTE boards.

In a democratic and civil society, the cruel and unusual techniques that you listed would not be considered just punishment for those convicted of any crime. How can these techniques be considered appropriate, when used on persons who are merely suspected, but not convicted of criminal activity?

Serr8d, you so willingly surrender your Constitutional rights; you would now grant the power to torture suspects to agencies of the federal government. I always thought that you were a freedom fighter. For one who claims to be a "conservative", your faith in big government is quite surprising.

Face it, Serr8d, if waterboarded 183 times, you too would claim to have been the mastermind behind 9-11 and also the mastermind behind anything else that the torturers might suggest.

Dick Cheney would easily endorse these tactics. The man actually shot 83 farm-raised pheasants in one afternoon, at a Latrobe PA game farm/private "hunting" preserve. Anyone who could justify a slaughter like that could easily justify these "enhanced techniques". The guy seems to be a sadist by nature; national security was and remains his cover.

"Civil war" again? We lost 618,000 soldiers and sailors in the last one. Have you Southerners already forgotten?

You red-state righties would be the first to head for the exits, if the federal government were to somehow collapse; yet you "patriotic" guys proudly wear those tacky US flag lapel pins and your vehicles are festooned with red, white and blue patriotic bumper stickers and ribbons. The right-wing Tee-shirts and caps are all about patriotism, faith and loyalty. It would seem that the partisan right's loyalty to Old Glory is actually quite fragile.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
Re: Reply to Serr8d
[info]serr8d
2009-05-02 03:33 pm UTC (link)
Ahhh, but this so-called 'torture' doesn't really rise to the level of 'torture'; real torture, to which I definitely would not subscribe (involving removing appendages, leaving marks, etc.), if defined historically and correctly. The Left looks to redefine to a 'new' definition of torture for their own political purposes. I see this redefiniton as just another methodology used to score political points. Believe me, the application of real 'torture' I would never condone. Do we hack off heads for video purposes, as was done to David Berg? or burn people alive? Let's not allow our brutal enemies to gain advantage just because we've picked up a 'progressive' (weak) President and Congress.

And there were lives saved by using these methods, in Los Angeles. I've friends who live in LA; they are of much more importance to me than the likes of the single terrorist we waterboarded.

Heh. You speak of 'fragile loyalties'. Speak to the $10 Trillion passed along to our grandchildren; and the imminent punishing inflation that lurks just months away, brought along by BHO's massive and uncontrolled moves to socialism. Where in the constitution does Government get the rights to control our very economy, to control and absorb corporations by application of taxpayer bailouts? I strongly opposed those bailouts, for reasons that I'm not selfish: if we've earned, by our own economic messes, a long drawn-out recession (or even a depression) then by god we should have one; and not make the next generations suffer just to keep our short-term happiness intact. The economy is the engine of our nation, now being CHANGEd by a far-left near-marxist for his own purposes.

Check out this excellent video. See how far along nations have come in the past 200 years, tagging along behind the 'wealthy' nations. That's happened because of capitalism, not in spite of capitalism.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
Re: Reply to Serr8d
(Anonymous)
2009-05-04 06:15 pm UTC (link)
What part of "cruel" do you not understand? Any cruel treatment of any type is absolutely forbidden, and always has been, by the 8th Amendment to the Constitution, which does not concern itself with the status of the prisoner in question.

Whether they are uniformed or guerrilla or simply criminal conspirators, it doesn't matter because the law is clear that we are absolutely forbidden to treat any prisoner cruelly in any way. They are to be treated as we would like our soldiers to be treated if they are ever captured.

(Reply to this) (Parent)
From RKB: George Washington Condemned Torture
(Anonymous)
2009-05-04 06:07 pm UTC (link)
Here is some great research that turned up an address from the Father of our Country to his troops after he caught them about to torture German mercenaries. He told them not only do we not do that because it's "base" and would bring dishonor on us, but we also refuse to torture in order to show how much better we are than the British, who DID torture prisoners of war at that time.

http://thestressblog.com/2007/12/24/george-washington-no-torture-on-my-watch/

Now when I argue about torture with GOPers, I just say "Dad said no torture" and point them to this link.

(Reply to this) (Thread)
Re: From RKB: George Washington Condemned Torture
(Anonymous)
2009-05-11 01:33 pm UTC (link)
But "Dad" didn't have Islamic whackos (not the WHOLE religion, mind you, just the extreme) flying planes into buildings, plotting the destruction of entire cities with bombs, beheading (which I consider REAL torture) prisoners, and the such. If he had to endure these things, I think he would agree that ANYTHING used to keep the country safe was worth it.

Besides, your premise is wrong----this is humiliation, NOT torture----beheading and dismembering your prisoners would be torture, not what we are doing!!!

Eminem

(Reply to this) (Parent)
Welcome, RKB
[info]new_york_loner
2009-05-13 03:23 pm UTC (link)
Welcome to this site, RKB. Judging from your empathy and articulate expression, I can tell that you were raised right.

Thank you for that link. It’s comforting to know that a man who owned 300 slaves was so compassionate. Any President who raises hemp has to be mellow.

Let me introduce Serr8d and Eminem. They are two beloved right-wing ideologues who are kind enough to visit and comment. They think that I’m a left-wing ideologue and I think that they are right-wing ideologues. We try to find common ground, if we can. We keep it fairly civil. They came over from another site that I still frequent – the Nashville City Paper.

The NCP hosts a great group of regular posters on their Letters to the Editor boards. Here is their URL:

http://www.nashvillecitypaper.com/

Chances are, you can find Loner on that board on any given day. Please join us.

(Reply to this)

torture
(Anonymous)
2009-05-13 08:03 pm UTC (link)
As someone who's been married twice, and having worked in retail, I have learned that torture sucks.
Unless I'm the one holding the cat-o-nine-tails.
house_of_pain

(Reply to this) (Thread)
Welcome, house_of_pain
[info]new_york_loner
2009-05-15 12:51 pm UTC (link)
Pain, thanks for coming over to my little corner of the blogosphere.

Let me introduce house_of_pain. "House" is a regular on the Nashville City Paper LTE boards. He is a man of few words, none of them wasted. When it comes to quick wit and wry humor, House is the man.

Pain, I worked in retail for a period, the worst part of the torture was the background music; in those days the "music" was on a tape loop. After a few weeks of the same tape, I was ready to confess to anything - just change the frickin' tape! After a few years of that, my musical sensibilities were nearly burnt out. I had to rehab myself.

(Reply to this) (Parent)
Relevant posts in Nashville and New York City...
[info]new_york_loner
2009-05-15 05:45 pm UTC (link)
The torture issue came up this morning on the Nashville City Paper’s (NCP) LTE board. A poster with the username of “Citizen” commented on an LTE by Clayton Clouse. I dragged the online exchange over to this site, since it was topical, typical and current. Here’s the text:

Citizen: re. Clouse letter: Thank God for President Bush and Vice-President Chaney {sic} and the actions they took to protect all of us. The last I checked, terrorists captured during the commission of terrorist activities have no rights under domestic law, international law, the Geneva Convention, or some imagined American policy. I suppose Clouse is one of those people who think telling someone who is afraid of bugs that they will be put into a closed space with one bug is torture. Pity pity...(End of Citizen’s post)

I responded with this: Citizen, I understand your desire to protect this nation from harm, but rendition to third-party torturers, secret prisons, waterboarding and the Enhanced Interrogation Techniques (EIT) are counterproductive to that end.

President Obama has done a 180 on releasing the "abuse" photos etc., because he realizes that these images would act as recruiting posters for militant extremists. The more we torture, the more our enemies despise us and our friends distance themselves from us.

Cheney naturally claims that these EIT were effective in obtaining crucial information. We will never know if we could have gotten the same info using other methods.

One thing is clear, most people would confess to anything, if waterboarded enough, the veracity of confessions obtained through duress is highly questionable.

I wonder if the "slam dunk" on Saddam's WMD was, in actuality, a product of slam-dunking suspects on a waterboard. Did we invade Iraq because waterboarded suspects linked Saddam with 9-11, and "confessed" that Saddam had a WMD stockpile and a nuclear "yellow cake" program?

If so, Bush and Cheney are indeed war criminals. (End of my NCP post)

I didn’t pick on Nashville alone, I also posted on a New York Daily News discussion board, for a story headlined, “Obama's CIA hits back at critics in terror-torture debates, including Dick Cheney and Nancy Pelosi” Here’s the text of my NYDN post:

Anyone who could shoot 83 farm-raised pheasants in a single afternoon of sport-carnage, as Cheney did in Latrobe, PA, could easily justify these "enhanced interrogation techniques". Although Dick chickened out of service during the Vietnam War, his thirst for blood and vengeance has never been slaked. Bush is a gullible idiot, Cheney is a complete A-hole, with leadership like theirs, nobody should be surprised at the abject failure of their Administration. As for Pelosi, the fork-tongued woman is rotten to the core, she can no longer distinguish the truth from lies. (End of my post)

The NYDN post got yeas and nays. In Nashville, Citizen has not yet responded.

(Reply to this) (Thread)
Re: Relevant posts in Nashville and New York City...
(Anonymous)
2009-05-22 01:26 pm UTC (link)
5/22/09: I know this is off topic, but I was wondering if you were having any problems posting at NCP? I get a "you can't post comments" message on every story. Have I been banned? I'm too handsome to be banned!
house_of_pain

(Reply to this) (Parent)
Shutdown in Nashville?
[info]new_york_loner
2009-05-22 02:05 pm UTC (link)
Good morning, house_of_pain. It seems that you had a grab -n-go bag packed, you came to the right place.

I just tried to post on Dargent's LTE and I got the same treatment. Isn't it ironic, Dargent has been whining about the quantity and quality of the posts, now it seems that he may have gotten what he wished for.

It is comforting to know that it's not just me on the City Paper fecal roster.

I'll keep this Journal Entry going....we'll see who shows up from the NCP group.

(Reply to this) (Thread)
Re: Shutdown in Nashville?
(Anonymous)
2009-05-22 02:26 pm UTC (link)
Good to know, Loner. I'm disappointed with the NCP. We would have had a lively discussion about d7's LTE.
If they shut down posting for good, I'll have no use for that rag.
The comments are always more interesting than the reporting.
I was checking comments at the NYDN, which made me feel better about NashVegas.
We may not be so dysfunctional down here, after all.
house_of_pain

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
Re: Shutdown in Nashville?
(Anonymous)
2009-05-22 03:21 pm UTC (link)
We're back on at NCP.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
Re: Shutdown in Nashville?
[info]new_york_loner
2009-05-22 03:54 pm UTC (link)
Mr. Noseworthy called, he says it was a glitch. I tried to go to the NCP site, but Road Runner high speed search can't locate it. I tried my history, again NCP is unavailable. It seems the glitch is still buggering their site.

Give me the URL, pain, it may have changed....thanks.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
Re: Shutdown in Nashville?
(Anonymous)
2009-05-28 03:11 pm UTC (link)
Wasn't it Dargent that got the ball rolling last time with your "forced separation" from the NCP?

Eminem

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
Loner's picture on milk cartons
(Anonymous)
2009-05-29 12:24 pm UTC (link)
Are you on vacation in CA, Loner? Getting toasty with Arnold?
bnakat called you out yesterday at NCP, using every $5 word in the book.
We expected a verbal beat-down from you. Is a missing persons report in order?
house_of_pain

(Reply to this) (Parent)
Sorry for the long departure
(Anonymous)
2009-05-28 03:10 pm UTC (link)
Loner and all

Sorry for the long departure from the site, but had to get some personal issues settled....I'm back now. So much to say, so much to do, I can't start today, but I will be back soon!

Welcome House....

Donnie Baker

(Reply to this)

Time for a new thread
[info]anti_nemo
2009-05-28 03:16 pm UTC (link)
Don't you think it is about time for a new thread?

Where has Nemo been?

Where is YB?

I still love this place!

(Reply to this)

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